sen-no-sen timing

[HanshiClayton]

The first thing to understand is that terms like "sen no sen" are used by different sensei to mean different things.

It seems that everyone agrees on three kinds of defense/attack timing.

• Go no sen: Like beginner one-step timing. Wait for the attack, block it, and then counterattack. Most people use "go no sen" for this idea.
• Sen no sen: I usually see this label applied to to simultaneous attacks. You wait for the opponent to attack and then take him out without bothering to block. There is a reaction-time to overcome, but this is very easy to do in practice because we force students to make such unrealistic attacks. It is also easy in real life because drunks tend to throw awkward, slow punches with lots of telegraphing. However, this might not be what you meant by "sen no sen."
• Sen sen no sen: I've seen this one under many different labels, but the idea is always the same. You attack when you "sense" that the opponent has decided to attack. In other words, while waiting for your opponent to attack, you decide to attack him instead. Karate teachers surround this idea with all kids of mysticism. In my opinion it is a fraud.

Why a fraud? First, Funakoshi told us "there is no first attack in karate." What is "sen sen no sen," then, but a rationalization for an unprovoked attack? "I didn't attack first! He had decided to attack. He moved first!"

Second, imagine how this would play out in a gunfight. The video cameras in the witness cell phones are running. You are in a tense face-off with an armed desperado. Suddenly you "sense" that he is about to draw his pistol, so you slap leather and drill him through the chitlins before he can move. Consummate skill! Jesse James would be proud.

And then they show the video in court. There you are, and suddenly you draw on a man who has no pistol in his hand and you kill him. What sentence are you going to get from that jury? Cold-blooded murder! Everyone could see it. I think this is a situation we would rather avoid, even with fists instead of pistols.

Third, when sensei practice "sen sen no sen" timing, I think they are fooling themselves. They aren't "sensing" the other person's decision. They are using body language and muscle tension to trigger the other person's attack. This is just "sen no sen" timing without the reaction-time penalty. It is a neat trick, but it isn't "reading the opponent's mind." It is more like writing in the opponent's mind.

So I think "sen sen no sen" is a fraud, and threatens the student's legal standing after the fight. On the other hand it is "spooky" and people will never stop teaching it to gullible students.

[HanshiClayton]

I live in a rural area, far removed from gun slingers. So, I may be naïve there?

In Vermont, anyone over 16 can carry a concealed pistol without any permit, testing or qualification being required. In addition, a child under 16 can carry a pistol if he brings a note from his mom. Reference.

I submit that many of the fine people you see everyday are heeled and you just don't realize it.

As for "timings," the best one is where the opponent visibly launches an attack and you hit him without bothering to block. Call it what you will.

As for "unrealistic attacks," putting the attacker in front stance and making him step forward is unrealistic. Instead, stand face-to-face at arm's length and try to stop him from slapping your face. No pre-arrangement: either hand, whenever he wants to. You quickly decide to just hit him instead of trying to block!

[PLopresti]

{Edited by BDC to clarify Paul's points...}

Sen means to initiate and this concept is much too deep for me to post effectively. But I'll summarize by defining a couple of terms.

Go no sen means to retake the initiative and this happens right after we see or feel the attacker attacking. I'm using both karate and jujutsu as example when I say see or feel.

Another concept is called machi no sen or waiting to then take initiative.

Tai no sen means to retake the initiative while the uke is still in his movement phase. This can be particularly useful is judo throwing situations.

Sen no sen is on a different level and reaches into the intuitive levels of combat. In other words you kill the attack before the attack begins. It literally means previous to the attack.

Now this is funny since there is no first attack in karate according to funakoshi. Again think about how these concepts are utilized with an attacker that has a weapon and does that change things? What if you both have a weapon?

Now not only are those terms important but also are the terms ma ai or combative engagement distance.

As well as tai sabaki or body shifting. Again way too much to go into. And again these are practical things and should be studied in the dojo. They are hard to understand by just reading.

[HanshiClayton]

Well, here's the thing about external timing (relative to the single opponent who is intent on attacking you):

• You can attack him before he attacks you.
• You can attack him while he attacks you.
• You can attack him after he attacks you.

Before, during, after. Done. Anyone can see that there is no fourth thing there.

There is no point in us arguing about the labels we put on these three situations because Japanese masters are quite inconsistent about it. I think some of this is deliberate. They try to outshine each other by inventing subtle distinctions and new categories of timing, which is simple shamanism. The man who knows five types of timing looks like a greater master than the man who knows only four types. Unfortunately, their gullible students tend to be very impressed by this.

How can you tell if you are the victim of shaminism? Ask yourself if you are marveling at the master's depth. If so, you have been taken in. Masters really aren't that deep, but many of them are very dishonest.

In all of this, it is probably stupid to wait for the attack, block it, and attempt to counter. Your counter is going to run right into the opponent's continuing attack. So reacting afterward is for beginners. We teach them that timing because it prevents training injuries. Your turn -- my turn. No collisions.

For practical self-defense -- including claiming protection under self-defense law in a courtroom -- it is best to wait for the opponent's attack and then meet it in mid-stride with your response. This is the backbone of self-defense. The opponent has be be seen to attack.

As for attacking first, we are in deep trouble there. The idea of reading the opponent's mind and attacking when he has decided to move is very attractive to dishonest sensei who want to impress gullible followers. This is at best a magic trick; it is also a rationalization for attacking without warning in an art where such attacks are forbidden; and it is a great way to lose the legal advantage and feel the full weight of the law. A trained fighter cannot attack first and stay out of jail. I believe it is irresponsible to teach this "technique" to students. It inflates the sensei's reputation at the cost of placing the students in legal jeopardy. No moral teacher would do that.

What if there are weapons? Waiting for him to shoot first so you can shoot back would be really, really stupid. Trying to shoot a man who is firing at you is typical, but very risky. It is awfully hard to do that well. The only safe thing to do is to shoot him first, preferably from 200 yards using a scoped rifle. Unfortunately, this is also the most grossly illegal/immoral of the options.

This kind of discussion is evidence of the damage that the martial arts have suffered due to the contest mindset. In the arena, surprise attacks are perfectly okay! In fact, they are required. Otherwise nothing would ever happen. And afterward, there is no second contest in a courtroom. We are free of legal shackles. Attack away! Who would ever need anything else? Sen-no-sen is all you ever need!

What is the true, practical answer here? I carry a stun gun as my first line of defense. I use my karate and jujutsu to meet the attack in mid-stride, and the stun gun to shock and immobilize the opponent. If there is legal action, they can sue the stun-gun company. They have deeper pockets than I do.

And, you'll notice, discussions of timing such as this are fatally myopic. They utterly ignore the other gang members who are circling around to the rear. That's the situation the martial arts were designed for, not for gunfighters facing each other on Main Street. That situation is completely artificial and, frankly, unimportant.

[colinwee]

{Edited by BDC to clarify Paul's points...}

Now this is funny since there is no first attack in karate according to funakoshi. Again think about how these concepts are utilized with an attacker that has a weapon and does that change things? What if you both have a weapon?

Funakoshi's Dojo Kun are options on how to live life rather than a treatise on tactics, are they not?

Colin

[colinwee]

Well, here's the thing about external timing (relative to the single opponent who is intent on attacking you):

Before, during, after. Done. Anyone can see that there is no fourth thing there.

NIcely summarised!

In all of this, it is probably stupid to wait for the attack, block it, and attempt to counter. Your counter is going to run right into the opponent's continuing attack. So reacting afterward is for beginners. We teach them that timing because it prevents training injuries. Your turn -- my turn. No collisions.

I have a slightly different viewpoint here. The way you've described it is from a beginner's perspective. One technique comes, and the counter is initiated after the initial technique has run its course. However, a better way to effect go no sen is to wait for the technique to unfold and whilst the technique is in the air you then launch your counter. It is dissimilar to sen no sen only because you don't take your initiative at the same time your opponent takes the initiative. For instance, a groin kick beats a head high roundhouse kick all the time - an attack which needs little blocking. I am very happy to see the technique launched before choosing to fire a front kick.

As for attacking first, we are in deep trouble there. The idea of reading the opponent's mind and attacking when he has decided to move is very attractive to dishonest sensei who want to impress gullible followers.

That sensei would need to have a lot of midiklorians for that to work. Oh, I forgot, Dr Clayton doesn't watch TV or movies.

This is at best a magic trick

It's a guessing game.

And, you'll notice, discussions of timing such as this are fatally myopic. They utterly ignore the other gang members who are circling around to the rear. That's the situation the martial arts were designed for, not for gunfighters facing each other on Main Street. That situation is completely artificial and, frankly, unimportant.

Logically speaking you can't fight the whole gang at once. So hopefully you can fight with one at a time, use that one as a shield against the others, and work your way towards a defensible location. But in that situation, the more aggressive tactics usually come into play ... sen no sen, or sen sen no sen. There's very little time to 'transact' techniques in a melee situation.

Colin

[HanshiClayton]

That sensei would need to have a lot of midiklorians for that to work. Oh, I forgot, Dr Clayton doesn't watch TV or movies.

OK, Colin, I confess to having memorized all six Star Wars movies. (Han shot first!)

And, I often refer to "midicalorians marching two by two" to make fun of the medical theories of ki. Pretending to believe in ki does enhance karate technique. Ki theory should never be allowed to compete with antibiotics or oncology. Compared to modern western medicine, ki is stone-age superstition. Midicalorians indeed.

You hit one of my favorite topics!

[PLopresti]

For practical self-defense -- including claiming protection under self-defense law in a courtroom -- it is best to wait for the opponent's attack and then meet it in mid-stride with your response. This is the backbone of self-defense. The opponent has be be seen to attack.

I agree. Here's the thing we are failing to mention. Funakoshi's had begun to be utilized as a sport and as Colin suggested a way of life or a code to live by. So all these scenarios except the one where the attacker actually attacks first are pointless for self defense. Lets call them ego. But in a sport timing an intention lets say before a pitcher throws a ball can be very lucrative or jumping past an offensive Lineman for that matter.

I'm doing all of my posting from my cellphone so it's hard to go back and read. A thought pops into my head and I start typing. But at least we have some good threads going on here.

[HanshiClayton]

Colin said:

Logically speaking you can't fight the whole gang at once. So hopefully you can fight with one at a time, use that one as a shield against the others, and work your way towards a defensible location. But in that situation, the more aggressive tactics usually come into play ... sen no sen, or sen sen no sen. There's very little time to 'transact' techniques in a melee situation.

I have a video clip of one man utterly routing a group of six opponents by aggressively attacking one enemy and forcing him back until the two of them were fifteen or twenty feet away. Then he turned and ran back at the group, full-speed, and viciously attacked a second man, driving him out of the group and finally knocking him down. Then he turned back and targeted a third man, ran at him full speed, shouting and punching and driving him backwards until he fell down.

This tactic had the virtue of turning a "gang" of six into six overwhelmed individuals who eventually scattered and ran in all directions to get away from the crazy man.

So, to heck with "sen no sen" and the like. In that situation you turn up the throttle to 100% pure aggression. Nothing subtle.

[HanshiClayton]

Paul wrote:

But in a sport timing an intention lets say before a pitcher throws a ball can be very lucrative or jumping past an offensive Lineman for that matter.

I have so little to do with sport karate that I forget it exists. So, yes, my point of view is self-defense, and to a lesser extent, combat. It does not occur to me that I'm trying to polish off an offensive lineman. In fact, until the Ravens/Broncos game in Denver a month ago, I had never even seen an offensive lineman.

This is yet another example of how competition has warped and distorted the original art. The "best" timing for winning a trophy is the worst one for keeping you out of jail. I really doubt that many teachers make those distinctions clear to their students.