Martial Art or Martial System: A matter of semantics?

[Randhir]

Proponents of Krav Mgah rightfully define this system as a system of tactical self defense. A mere peruse of the system's basic principles would support this stance. As practitioners of Martial Arts, could we justifiably make the same claim? I have my doubts.

[HanshiClayton]

If I understand you correctly, Randhir, you are saying that traditional karate doesn't qualify as a system of self-defense. If so, I am inclined to agree.

I posted an essay on this website called Lessons from Streetfight Videos. In most cases, the punching part of the fight is brief and very inept. It is then followed by standing grappling and ground grappling. Our training in traditional karate does not cover any of these three situations. You might think that we at least cover the punching, but that kind of wild, swinging flurry-punching is never seen in a karate class. It isn't particularly formidable, but if we don't prepare for it, can we claim to be doing self-defense? I really don't think so.

On the other hand, when you add the jujutsu back into the karate, as they did in historical times, you get something that is more formidable than either art alone. That's the lesson we are getting from the katas.

[Randhir]

I could be wrong, but my experience and observations lead me to believe that even with the addition of ju jutsu, the element of Practical Application is glaringly absent from our routine practice and drilling exercises, rendering any combination of typically applied protocols, futile in a real live context.

[colinwee]

I could be wrong, but my experience and observations lead me to believe that even with the addition of ju jutsu, the element of Practical Application is glaringly absent from our routine practice and drilling exercises, rendering any combination of typically applied protocols, futile in a real live context.

Are you referring to a systematic and practical way to deal with attacks? Or are you referring to a systematic way to ready someone to deal with attacks? I would say there are those schools that are accessible that have fairly decent systems of training. I would like to believe that my program is a fairly systematic progression for students. But whether that student synthesizes the information, combines it with scenario training, and then keeps his mind in check to deal with unprovoked violence ... well, I would say that not many would gain enough experience in order to take their skills to that next level. Or worse still get stuck at gear one -- doing flippity flip techniques and blindsided into thinking that it'll always work that way ... jab, jab, quick step, kick ....

Is that your concern?

Colin

[HanshiClayton]

Thanks for the heads-up, Randhir. On your urging, I got a copy of a Krav Maga book, and right there on page 132 was the exact application I've suggested for H. Yondan, step 12-19, which I called Riote Kanoha Gaeshi, Nihou Geri. The KM guys call it the "Two-Handed Pluck."

Darren Levine, et al., Krav Maga for Beginners: A Step-by-Step Guide to the World's Easiest-to-Learn, Most-Effective Fitness and Fighting Program, Ulysses, 2009.

The KM blocks seem weak to me, but are probably good enough if you are not teaching people any basic principles. I like the fact that they do kumite as 2 versus 1. I'll incorporate that into my class.

Checking back, I'm up to page 153 now. The self-defense combatives are pretty solid, like I teach, with one or two exceptions. Bear hug, hands free should attack the face, I think, not try to get a knee into the groin. The face attack, even if ineffective, makes him release the hug.

Hmmm, on page 154 picture number 1 and number 3 are the same photo. Pasteup artists should drink more coffee.

I've read the groundfighting section now. I was unhappy that this section began with how to hold a person down in the guard and mount positions, as those are skills for rapists, not for self-defense students. On the other hand, they then proceeded to an emphasis on how to break out of those situations, both from top and bottom, and get back on your feet. That's more like it.

Good stuff here.

BDC

[colinwee]

I'm not sure if I'm on the right track with the thread, but the basis for comparing something like hard style karate or taekwondo to a system like KM is because of KM's focus on practicality and the realness of combat. This is in direct contrast to traditional schools focusing on unrealistic kata-driven applications that are basically contrived, and what I have come to communicate as a bunch of 'end points' strung together. I think people will benefit from seeing that some instructors don't approach martial arts as a PE class and are keen to collate real skills and tactics that can be applied at various distances. Basically this fleshes out a 'procedure manual' to fill in the blanks for the end points described by kata -- which is no different to how a KM or SD or CCC instructor would approach the cataloguing of their own system. THen there are some instructors who have taken these tactics and skills and are identifying some real strategy which can be used by practitioners to understand how to deal with an unrelenting and non-compliant attacker. It is a worthwhile story to read. Colin

[ScottKMK]

I have been taking Krav Maga for almost 3 months now, but i'm a 2nd Dan in our general style of Karate and 2nd Dan in Ju-Jitsu. I have studied the traditional martial arts for the last 13 years, and still train. So this is a great post for a newbie like me to particicpate in.

My initial impressions of Krav Maga vs. the Traditional Arts I have studied:
1) The component of KM's actual self-defense lasts less than a 1/4 of a second, then it turns into balastic offensive moves to overwhelm the agressor and end the fight (and get out of there) as soon as possible. Just like football, the best defense is an offense.
2) In KM, the 18 and over student is taught brutal techniques and strategy, as well as when and how to turn on and off the switch, during the first class! In my traditional arts training experience, this took many years and in some cases, real self defense attacks and strategy has never been taught to students. And rarely practiced or trained for. The reasoning was, and still is, it is a liability if we teach someone this or that. (If someone is taught how to use a gun, is the teacher liable for the student's actions?). I've seen traditional martial arts students who have studied for 3,4,5 years who would loose a fight with a KM student of 3 months, given the same size, athletic ability and mental attitude. It's a shame.
3) KM students have better cardio training. I'm almost 50 and thought I was in decent shape, but these KM sessions are exhausting. KM also works on the ability to take a hit (of sorts) and respond. During drills that one holds a bag or mit for a partner, the partner is pretty much hitting as hard as possible, all the time.
4) With my traditional MA training, I have a lot more tools in my bag and can be soft or hard (vs. always being hard). I have more advanced strategies and movements, as well as more control over my body. I also have non-violent techniques that can be used vs. none in KM (that i've seen so far).

I need to pass the KM Level-1 test before I can participate in "Fight Night", which I hope is sometime in February. Then i'll better be able add to the comparison of experienced KM vs. the traditional martial artists. Me being the later.

[milmascaras2]

Hello,
If I may comment, karate is self-defense 'sans parallel', it was designed for that specific purpose,all the tools that one needs are forseen by the ancient masters,they were no different than us,and in most cases encountered obstacles that modern man can not begin to contemplate (i.e. a real samurai with sword!). A shuto to the tnroat,a nukite to the eyes, tettsui to the kidneys all the while twisting the opponents wrist with the hikete will work just as well today as they did when the masters included them in their personal arsenals. In my opinion, many people are 'awed' by the physical fitness of the sports world,while forgeting that taregets such as the eyes,groin,kidneys, and eardrums require minnimal force to be effective (nevermind by a trained karateka!)
Thank You

[Randhir]

Hi milmamsacras2


Are you suggesting that martial arts as traditionally practiced barefoot with uniforms amounts to an effective system of self defense?

Thanks much,


Randhir

[milmascaras2]

Hello Randhir,
I must apologize for the late response. I'm advocating the traditional usage of karate,not customs (i.e Karate Gi ,1936),as a total combat system. As Dr. Claytons' research has found, several techniques which many people nowadays consider 'avant garde',have always been there in the katas. I believe that the reason most people are drawn to karate is the promise of proven combat techniques which allow them to "turn the tables" on an assailant
who may be of superior strength. Modern systems such as Krav Maga seem to emphasize superior fitness and agressiveness as the goal ('making you stronger or more agressive than the assailant') where does it end? The day you meet someone stronger and more agressive. With that said Krav Maga does offer some interesting scenarios for improvement. Thanks for your response.