3-on-1 street fight/mugging as told by the 1.

[Nothingfancy]

"This is the karate "blitz" attack that simply opens a hole in the wall around you, letting you move to the outside of the triangle.

"

I will be looking at this. And practicing. Naihanchi-sho would of/ could of, been used here.

[HanshiClayton]

Naihanchi-sho would of/ could of, been used here.

I was thinking more of Heian Shodan with its triple front punches. Just saying.

[colinwee]

This part of the story taps into some deep resentment I have about the value of traditional karate techniques for self-defense. I was always encouraged to believe that karate fighters were virtually untouchable on the street, but in fact traditional karate trains students to lose fights. (Biker-bar bouncers laugh at us.)

I don't know if it's so much traditional karate (or in my case traditional taekwondo) that teaches us to lose fights. It's what we value in our training and what we're setting ourselves up for. From what I see, I suspect that overt displays of power (like the sliding side kick demo) or prowess in sparring create a misplaced appreciation for how much our martial arts are worth. Just today one of my new black belt students was grumbling about his lack of sparring ability - just because some over-40 year old man was faster than him and ended up choking him on the ground. But the guy outweighs me by almost 30 kilos of pure muscle! It's literally one hit and I'm out. Yet for him, he's adopting a game strategy that's similar to my game strategy. In such a case with better speed and experience, I've got a great chance against him.

It's this same black belt student that wonders why I don't emphasize more sophisticated long range kicks - the specific ones that can be used to 'win' in a semi contact bout. The reason is simple. Sparring is only an exercise. A game where you get to exchange techniques and you expect to have the person return fire. I believe that Funakoshi Sensei was against jiyu kumite, and I assume it's for this reason. The more I spar, the more I think I should spend time in close quarter 'self defence' type training. And this is why he ended up being choked out.

As a kicker I must ask, what was NothingFancy's expectation when he launched that front kick? Did you think you would throw a few more techniques and leverage the advantages you had ? In our system, the first kick is introduced at our third pattern do-san. You do a double knife hand block, grab, front kick, and punch (straight out of Heian Yodan Steps 14-17). What happens before the front kick? You have to be in close enough to grab onto something, rip it apart or twist it, and then kick it whilst holding on. After the kick you literally punch the person in the neck or floating ribs or break his neck whilst he's bent over. If you do that, then that kick is going to be worth something, and you are not expecting that person to get up from such an attack so soon. That's traditional training for me ... it's nothing about setting myself up to throw a few more techniques. As Kyoshi Clayton communicates in his book you need to finish your opponent in one or two techniques. I'm sure he said that somewhere in his book!

I think there are a few good ideas on this thread about multiple person training, scenario based training, and of course that self defence wisdom of not getting out of the car. I am however happy that you were lucky to walk away with some scrapes and bruises. The survivor is the hero. Perhaps next time you'd survive with less injuries? Have a safe 2012.

Colin

[colinwee]

You must not slug it out from the middle of the triangle. That gives them all the advantages.

Well said, Kyoshi.

I saw a demo on youtube a little while ago of a multiple person scenario. The guy who was attacked pulled out a knife and literally sliced his attackers to shreds. Yet he was moving strategically all the while, aligning his attackers so he could deal with them one at a time. I have never seen such an impressive non-choreographed situation before. If it had been a real knife I would have no doubt each one of his attackers would have bled out and or asphyxiated on his own blood shortly. In such a situation, he used a weapon to his advantage and tipped the scales against the various opponents who were coming at him.

For this discussion, if any one of you saw several guys who've literally come out of their dark alleyway to accost you ... what would 1) reduce the threat posed by your new friends, and 2) what would tip the scales in your favour?

Colin

[HanshiClayton]

Hi, Colin. Nice to know the old guys can still beat up the newbies.

For this discussion, if any one of you saw several guys who've literally come out of their dark alleyway to accost you ... what would 1) reduce the threat posed by your new friends, and 2) what would tip the scales in your favour?

I think the right answer is the classic "Run away!" That said, I was never any good at running. I teach my students not to run "away," but to run toward something. Run toward lights. Run into traffic. Run toward weapons. Run toward anything that alters the tactical situation. And in particular, get some distance from that alley! They picked that spot for its privacy.

Stepping between two parked cars alters the tactical situation, for instance. Running into someone's house/apartment has big advantages. They call 911, so you don't have to. You can load up on knives in their kitchen. If they pull a gun on you, you can use it against your assailants!

Don't think that you can avoid the fight. Just move the fight to a new spot.

That's the good advice for the students. As for me, I carry a "man bag" (purse) with a disguised stun gun sticking out of the cel-phone pocket. They would get to deal with 40 years of combat training and 50,000 volts at the same time. All of that is so that I don't have to reach into the back pocket of the bag for what I carry there.

If you can read between the lines, that's another reason not to live in NYC. A good one.

[PLopresti]

Ill throw my two cents in here. These are random thoughts on all the posts here so far but for me it comes down to this. Traditional karate training does not prepare you for real life encounters where you need self defense. When I say traditional, I mean the JKA-style "3K" training which consists of kihon (line drilling), Kata (solo re-enactments of prescribed movements), and kumite (rule bound, mutual confrontations). Those last two training methodologies are very important to discuss here. But I wanted to make my opinion known first about this type of training. Since many "styles of Te" were brought into the Okinawan school systems first and then went into the Japanese colleges, they was designed to meet the needs of a physical education program and were never intended to be used as a fighting art/discipline. Even Motobu Choki called Funakoshi's karate "imposter Karate" due to its lack of realistic elements. My thought is that Funakoshis goal was to bring in a PE program and didnt care about actual fighting as he was a pacifist. His 5 Dan levels referring to the five levels of Zen Buddist mastery. I digress. Again looking at the Shotokan dojo kun, no where does it mention actually using the art as a tool for self defense. Seek the perfection of character, not technique, refrain from violent behavior, etc. His Niju Kun however are a different story and they were written first. In those, we know he understood real life confrontations. We can look at several but hopefully this post will open up further dialogue.

Ok over to the rule bound kumite practice. When there is a referee and a time clock things are very different. Most traditional karateka practice sparring against another "trained" person. Trained in the same rule bound practices that is. And most oftentimes it is only one person at a time. We step into a ring with clear boundaries. So we can all see and agree that this is not how we would encounter most real life self defense situations with the exception of the bar encounter where, as gentelmen, we ask our adversary to politely "step outside". So how do we address this?? Here is what I do.

1. Practice "elevator/closet" sparring. This is where you confine the opponents into a very tight space where oi zuki almost cannot be used. Very close quarter combat.

2. Practice "multiple attacker" sparring This is where you use your environment to help defend yourself. You may use a wall, corner, vehicle, dumpster to defend your back. Watch someone throw full force into your face when they can bust their hands on the concrete behind you with a small slip.

3. Practice "take away" sparring. This is where the opponent has a weapon and you must neutralize it. I use mostly wooden blades so if you get stabbed it hurts like Heck. You must either disarm or disable.

4. Grapple, grapple, grapple. Cant have any excuses for not doing this in a dojo of any sort IF you say you are teaching self defense. If your school is for esoteric practices of the martial arts fine but its a no no to tell people you will be teaching them self defense and never get on your back. What percentage of fights end up there???? Right and why dont you practice being down there???? Its better to know what to do should you find yourself there, then find yourself there and not know what to do. All of the kata I work with (Shotokan syllabus) contain techniques that work equally effective on the ground.
Oh yeah, dont forget No Gi training. Bodies are slippery and try to hold on to a sweaty dude who is trying to punish you. Big mistake of you ONLY do gi training.

So thats how I address the kumite in my dojo with my personal students. On to kata practice.

First things first. We all know now that the prescribed "Best Karate" Shotokan series books and the copycats do not contain accurate interpretations of the kata movements. This is well documented and one of the reasons we have this forum

With that being said, kata practice is done in all JKA style dojos and other schools where it is a part of their curriculum. Here is the problem. Even though we practice kata, we almost always practice it as a solo exercise, when in fact they were developed in exactly the opposite manner. Kata was the end result of the self defense practices that were taught. I have taken on a personal challenge to recreate the Heian/Pinan kata into a complete two person continuous drills where both persons can practice actual self defense scenarios with a stimulus/response type training principle. I strive to do this after years of studying the two man drills of Koryu Uchinadi under Patrick McCarthy, my instructor. Last May I began to teach this way. Training with me I have a young lady who had training in a Korean style that did not practice Heian/pinan derived kata. She studied as a young person and stopped over 15 years ago. So she had no idea what Heian Shodan looked like EVER. After a two hour lesson we ended the session and went to eat and shower etc. Later that night we were out enjoying a few adult beverages when one of the black belts asked her to "re create" the two man drill by herself and see how much she remembered. She was able to do about 3/4 of heian shodan (at least that is what it looked like to the naked eye). I knew she was recreating the self defense scenarios she had learned that afternoon. Experiment = success. All the shotokan people were amazed that could be done. It was due to the type of training I have immersed myself in.

Why did Funakoshi say it took him 3 years to learn one kata????? It because it took him that long to study it in depth. I believe him. Just as we unpeel an onion I am still exploring that first Heian kata and looking at all the possibilities contained. I have a basic framework for all the Heian kata and I have a formula I am using but there are just so many things we can do to make them functional.

The point in all this is that without knowing why we are doing those movements (no contextual premise) we are just doing another dance move. And if we do not train in that fashion, there is no way we can ever hope to use the kata to help us develop our self defense arsenal.

Ill end it here but will be glad to debate. Hope to light a few candles.

Paul Lopresti

[HanshiClayton]

Welcome to the forum, Paul. There is no question that you are among like-minded people here. I really look forward to learning your Heian drills to pass on to my class.

I'd like to pose a challenge for you!

Grapple, grapple, grapple. Cant have any excuses for not doing this in a dojo of any sort IF you say you are teaching self defense. If your school is for esoteric practices of the martial arts fine but its a no no to tell people you will be teaching them self defense and never get on your back.

How about you teach a session for the UKAI camp that takes the JKA student and teaches him basic-self-defense-grappling-on-you-back? It would have to be pretty basic for me. If I might suggest, the focus would be on escaping to an upright position again rather than subduing the opponent. How would non-grappling karate students begin to study the fighting style of the turtle on its back?

That's actually quite a challenge. Here's your hour and a half. Turn us into "survival grapplers." How about it?

[HanshiClayton]

If it had been a real knife I would have no doubt each one of his attackers would have bled out and or asphyxiated on his own blood shortly. In such a situation, he used a weapon to his advantage and tipped the scales against the various opponents who were coming at him.

I hold as a rule of thumb that picking up a weapon makes you ten times as formidable as you were before; that karate or jujutsu training works the same way; and that multiple skills or physical weapons have an effect that is multiplicative. That is, karate makes you 10x more effective than before. Karate + jujutsu = 100x more effective. Karate + jujutsu + knife = 1000x more effective than before.

Samson is nasty, but Samson + jawbone is WAY nasty.

I don't suppose you could find the link to this impressive video?

[PLopresti]

Excellent idea Bruce san, and one that I can do as per your request. In fact, I just put together a two man grappling drill that includes exactly what you just said. It involves using a active closed guard to control/submit/subdue an opponent. The young lady I spoke of earlier has been studying with me and during ground sessions always winds up on her back to the larger male students. She gets frustrated at the lack of depth of her knowledge in what to do so, I basically developed this drill to address those concerns. Of course the hard part is in actually doing the movements successfully against an aggressive partner, which is where the training takes place. Ill water it down for an hour and a half lesson but it is 85 movements in its entirety so it would take an entire weekend of training to show the entire drill.

[Nothingfancy]

As a kicker I must ask, what was NothingFancy's expectation when he launched that front kick?

Colin, To be honest I had a huge adrenaline rush at that point. I thought the kick may serve two purposes, 1. to put a moments distance between myself and he, and 2., a "warning shot" of sorts, had I not been sucker-punched, it was on my mind to have pivoted to face the next person. I think the adrenaline and the hit in the temple changed my whole demeanor. I sort of had "tunnel vision" after that.